Curse

Gregslot · Apr 29, 2008, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I'm paraphrasing the essence of the pro-grind arguements as I have read them - If I've misrepresented, feel free to point them out.

"The grind in guildwars is good because other games have much more"
- This logical fallacy is known as relative privation. The existance of a something that is worse, does not make the subject better.

"Guildwars is an RPG and therefore needs grind"
- This is the package deal fallacy. Just because two things have been associated with one another in the past does not mean that the association is a good thing.

"All grind is optional because you can complete the story without the pve skills"
- This is the fallacy of the undistributed middle. Yes, you can complete the story line without the PvE skills, however the storyline is a only a small subset of the PvE game.

"Grind is fun"
- This is the only valid argument I've heard for why guildwars grind should exist and is countered by the equally valid argument "Grind is not fun".

Wow, i think everyone should read this to get some idea of reality.
Most people cant understand how connected facts work becuase they either say/think "one thing is what that thing is" or "one thing is part of a whole" when what really happens is "one thing is what that thing is AND this thing is part of a whole".
All but the last statement you quoted are related to this topic.
Like when you say "Guild Wars is a RPG", and they directly connect it to "therefore it needs grind". The first thing i said IS part of a whole, but not necessarily connected to the second thing. Both are individual facts linked to other individual facts but not necessarily to themselves (although we musnt belive they will never be associated).
The same thing happens to these sentences: "the grind in Guild Wars is fun" and "other games have much more grind" / "grind is optional" and "you can complete the storyline without pve skills".
Reading them separetedly will make you see how they arent really connected. (seriously, read it, they will make sence, but not connected)
Enough of philosophy for tonight.

Now to counter and defeat your last sentence:
Grind is not fun. (first fact)
GuildWars was not made to support grind. (second fact)
Grind + GuildWars is not fun. (third fact)

3x1

Gregslot · Apr 29, 2008, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxage

I didn't officially work for Arena Net. I was a tester for Guild Wars 2 for a brief period of time, but quit. Guild Wars 2 is very similar to another mmorpg that shall not be named, and is heavily grind based. Not to mention I hate how much Guild Wars 2 rewards Guild Wars titles.

Which is why I know so much about Guild Wars 2, and the second I post anything about it, it gets deleted. Arena Net is trying to keep Guild Wars 2 in the dark. Which is why this post will probably be deleted as well. Hopefully someone out there will read this...

Oh really.... how curious, you see, i know someone who has been part of the beta test.
Can you please tell us MORE? Oh yea, tell us about their new game engine, how does it feel like playing it? Did they changed it from the original game? What did they changed?
1000 players? Wow, that way more than iv heard, i think you are exagerating a little, dont we agree?

Toxage · Apr 29, 2008, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregslot

Oh really.... how curious, you see, i know someone who has been part of the beta test.
Can you please tell us MORE? Oh yea, tell us about their new game engine, how does it feel like playing it? Did they changed it from the original game? What did they changed?
1000 players? Wow, that way more than iv heard, i think you are exagerating a little, dont we agree?

I don't know specifically what they changed in their game engine.

But playing it feels more immersive, you can run, jump, climb, swim, parry, block with shield, numerous professions, and more customization (They added the majority of my customization suggestions WOOT!)

Graphics are pretty good, but still in development.

Nope, I don't agree. You don't know anything; you don't sound like a tester

Mickey · Apr 29, 2008, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxage

I don't know specifically what they changed in their game engine.

But playing it feels more immersive, you can run, jump, climb, swim, parry, block with shield, numerous professions, and more customization (They added the majority of my customization suggestions WOOT!)

Graphics are pretty good, but still in development.

Nope, I don't agree. You don't know anything; you don't sound like a tester

Way to give us information that all of us already know. You really need to stop pretending like your someone, and realize that no body gives a rat's ass who you are, or what you've done.

Njaiguni Blaze · Apr 29, 2008, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Toxage, even if you were a tester, you're not supposed to say anything about the game.

Nor do your findings mean anything because it's your opinion and views and the game is not out for another 2 years.

I know posts of yours are deleted. By a certain person who I read about on a certain talkpage on a certain wiki. And I give him or her all my blessings because you can't say these things. Even if they are true, you are not allowed to.

Clarissa F · Apr 29, 2008, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Toxage, you go from WoW lover to beta GW2 tester to....what? You say in one post you'd never work for Anet....oh, excuse me, you said before you did....but wait, it wasn't in an official capacity, just as a beta tester....for a game that isn't even in beta yet....

BTW, I can't be living under a rock. You and your ego take up all the room.

RedNova88 · Apr 29, 2008, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Narcissia is absolutely correct. In the mainstream MMOs grinding isn't an option. Grind or die, and while you're at it pay 15$ a month. At least in Guild Wars it's mostly pointless, and those that rely on PvE skills either don't care what anyone thinks, or are having a hard time without them. If you don't like titles and don't want to grind them, then DON'T! The only title that's actually forced on you is the first rank of Kurzick/Luxon and that takes like what? 20-30 minutes to do all the faction quests?

And don't bring Lightbringer into this, many people complain the game is too easy, yet they whine that things like Lightbringer are necessary to do DoA and the such. People are just looking to whine. Plain and simple. Pay them no attention, lest they drown us all in their tears.

Gregslot · Apr 29, 2008, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxage

I don't know specifically what they changed in their game engine.

But playing it feels more immersive, you can run, jump, climb, swim, parry, block with shield, numerous professions, and more customization (They added the majority of my customization suggestions WOOT!)

Graphics are pretty good, but still in development.

Nope, I don't agree. You don't know anything; you don't sound like a tester

I never said i was a tester, you are telling us that.
But hey, didint you signed that "silence" contract like everybody else?

Ok enough child play.
If we read your posts we can see how you are lying and it sounds ridiculous how you are really trying to prove people you know stuff you obviously dont know.
We can also notice that you have a flaccid ego, because your suggestions were not introduced into the game and you are supressing your frustration by saying that they were. BUT ALSO you said about 1 hour ago that GW sucks because your ideas werent implemented. (the first symptom of a lie is controversion)
Therefore you are trying to fool everyone to also fool yourself that you are important.
And what frustrates you even more is that the game doesnt correspond your expectatives and you are not happy with it, but you dont want to accept it, therefore you lie because you dont want face the truth.
You are either a child that barely learned to lie, or teenager facing the storm of hormones or a needing adult.
Either they way you have problems and this is nor the place channalize your problems nor where you will work it out.
(we can go on and on with this and it will only get worse)

By this i politely invite you to stop saying absurds and braking the focus of the conversation, before one of us talk to the admins to delete the unrelated posts.

BACK TO THE TOPIC.

I would really like that the devs would tell us how the rewards are going to work, we dont need to know IT ALL, just how are the game's rules! =]

Bront · Apr 29, 2008, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedNova88

The only title that's actually forced on you is the first rank of Kurzick/Luxon and that takes like what? 20-30 minutes to do all the faction quests?

If you can earn 100,000 faction in 20-30 minutes, please let us in on the secret!

Mr. Undisclosed · Apr 29, 2008, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Toxage is like the most obvious troll ever.

Makes me giggle when you guys get all worked up over him.

StormDragonZ · Apr 29, 2008, 05:17 AM // 05:17

You know what ANet needs to do? Two ideas:

- Determine what they plan to do with GW2 and announce plans here in GW1 to get us, without telling us, prepared for what can be expected in the near future. With the idea of PvP changes with little or no effect in PvE... it's a start.

- Know a good selection of die hard PvE only people and PvP only people. Knowing how both sides work and act in two different modes can give ideas on how to handle situations if one side complains. Know your community, ANet. Tell us what you think we would like, get our opinions, and then offer up something else. Assumptions FTL.

To my own, I enjoy listening to what people have to say.

Master Knightfall · Apr 29, 2008, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Hey Toxage you ever notice how all of a sudden everyone becomes a psychiatrist, doctor or lawyer at this site? lol

CagedinSanity · Apr 29, 2008, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Most games have a grind factor, to either very minor (Like achievements on 360) or major (kill X creatures, most MMO's.)

It's just part of the game, deal with it.

Bryant Again · Apr 29, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Hey Toxage you ever notice how all of a sudden everyone becomes a psychiatrist, doctor or lawyer at this site? lol

Why I don't trust Toxage: Clicky.

That aside...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Maybe they should try playing at times that aren't prime time when you don't have a lot of 8 year olds playing.

Well, at least you're admitting that there are a lot of annoying people.

I can't really join any "pugs" before those times because I usually have to go to school early in the morning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

I do look for grind in GW2 though, they have proven that people actually like it even with the handful that complain about it online.

I don't think they add it "because most people like it", but rather that grind isn't "required" in any traditional sense. You don't have to be R5 Norn to continue the story, you don't have to kill 500 monsters to be able to move onto the next area.

The grind in the game doesn't exist because "most people like it", but because it's entirely optional (unless, you know, you want to pug DoA, but that's a different problem altogether).

"Optional grind" I don't really have much of a problem with, just as long as it doesn't have much of an in-game effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

No not really required builds, but, a build you must use if you are "IMPATIENT".

Right, and that wait can be from two hours to two days, while the "recommended" build can get in there, join, and be in the area within a couple minutes.

And the "impatient" builds are the ones that are easy to use and easy to set up, which is why Ursanway is so popular.

Holy crap, you got banned D:

Abedeus · Apr 29, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

Most games have a grind factor, to either very minor (Like achievements on 360) or major (kill X creatures, most MMO's.)

It's just part of the game, deal with it.

You are making a liar out of my Prophecies box. I see skill>time there.

And perhaps you don't know/remember, that GW was NEVER supposed to be about grind. That's why a lot of people bought it. And grind is in every MMO right now, but guess what? IT'S NOT SO GODDAMN BORING THERE -.- In GW we have either:

PvE Grind, which is usually 5-8 players in wurms, gaining SS/LB titles over and over in same place, same way and doing same quest
PvE Grind, you roll 5 ursans and 3 healers, do a quest/DoA/explorable zone, go to city, rinse and repeat
PvP Grind on HA, where you play till you die (lol) FOR HOURS, not to be better, but to get into better games.

BlackSephir · Apr 29, 2008, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

Most games have a grind factor, to either very minor (Like achievements on 360) or major (kill X creatures, most MMO's.)

There were games before xbrick and MMOs. Many, very many of them didn't have grind. Your "grind is part of the game" is a pathetic lie.

Hey, I'm going to play Fallout 2 with its restoration pack, mind pointing the grind in it?

CagedinSanity · Apr 29, 2008, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

PvE Grind, which is usually 5-8 players in wurms, gaining SS/LB titles over and over in same place, same way and doing same quest
PvE Grind, you roll 5 ursans and 3 healers, do a quest/DoA/explorable zone, go to city, rinse and repeat
PvP Grind on HA, where you play till you die (lol) FOR HOURS, not to be better, but to get into better games.

Haaayyyy I like my SS/LB wurm grinds

Also, send me Fallout 2 and I'll point out the grind.

Hell, killing X amount of Locusts in Gears of War is practiclly a grind. Kill untill a door opens.

roshanabey2 · Apr 29, 2008, 04:32 PM // 16:32

poll please for a) guild wars b) grind wars c) my thumb is the best thumb in the world

Antheus · Apr 29, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I don't think they add it "because most people like it", but rather that grind isn't "required" in any traditional sense. You don't have to be R5 Norn to continue the story, you don't have to kill 500 monsters to be able to move onto the next area.

The grind in the game doesn't exist because "most people like it", but because it's entirely optional (unless, you know, you want to pug DoA, but that's a different problem altogether).

"Optional grind" I don't really have much of a problem with, just as long as it doesn't have much of an in-game effect.

Unfortunately, this optional grind has been the only content that has been added in a very long time....

So yes, it may be optional. But if you choose to skip it, well, then the game is exactly where it was before the titles were added: 2 years with not a single shred of new content.

Granted, there were chapters, but isn't that just 20 hours of content each? And titles add 50 - 5000 hours each.

In other words, the skill>time crowd got almost nothing, and everything else has catered to the crowd that GW was never intended for.

And no, I've played some other MMOs, GW has one of the worst possible grinds in existence. FFF or HA, for example. No other MMORPG ever found a crowd that would go through such painful experience to get - absolutely nothing. At least in other games of the type grinding for 3 years made you a demi-god, and gave your account value in thousands of dollars. Here, grinding for 3 years, and you're only 1 more year away from r15. And you get an emote. In EvE, playing for 2 years means you're baaaad. Even if you do nothing.

Or FFF. Some 500 hours of pure botting. And you get... well, nothing, since those PvE skills are redundant due to Ursan. 500 hours in WoW gets you highest tier epics these days, and time to roll a second character.

And that's the fundamental problem. Since GW doesn't even remotely support grind of any kind (even farming was incredibly problematic), any attempt to add it resulted in broken concepts.

If I spend 500 hours on something, I *want* an "I Win[E] (Shout)". So does everyone else. And some pitiful HoM marketing trick isn't it.

But hey, let's not worry about it - since the grind is optional, the 9 rings game is completely deserted. Who cares about some pitiful Lucky title, right. Nobody in their right mind would spend entire weekend logged in AFK, grinding it (judging by the number of districts vs. holiday events, 50% of active GW population is there, if not more).

Bryant Again · Apr 29, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Lack of content??? For an RPG it has plenty: four different stories to tackle, elite missions, and with GW:EN a large series of multi-leveled (but a bit repetitive) dungeons. I'd say it roughly has more content than most RPGs,

As an MMO, yes it is lacking quite a bit. But Guild Wars has never really been tailored as one. This mentality is what I believe to be one of the largest problems risen from the GW playerbase.

I'm just so confused why people demand so much out of ANet. I never saw people bashing Bioware for not releasing more Knights of the Old Republic content, or damning Final Fantasy for not having more end-game choices. Guild Wars is just an RPG that wants you to play through it's stories and create a character, not to keep you playing hours-on-end.

Why do people want to be essentially "addicted" to Guild Wars?